Thales

"Thales" is also a: user

created by wonko

(person) by wonko (1.2 y) (print) ? (I like it!) 1 C! Mon Apr 10 2000 at 9:28:34

Thales is considered the founder of Greek philosophy. He is said to have used his knowledge of science to predict a solar eclipse and other natural phenomena. He believed that the Earth was a flat disc that floated on water, and that the principle of all things is water (i.e., everything comes from water, and everything eventually returns to water). Thus he believed that everything in the universe was just a modification of water.

He is thought to have introduced the concept of geometry, although this cannot be proven. He was also probably the first Greek philosopher who looked for a physical origin of the world instead of attributing everything to mythology.

Quotes:
None. Thales never wrote anything, and therefore there are no quotes of him in existence.

(person) by Behemoth (1.2 mon) (print) ? (I like it!) Mon Jul 23 2001 at 18:01:49

(c.624-c.547 BCE)

Thales of Miletus is regarded as the father of philosophy, as he was the first Greek, of whom we have knowledge, to break with existing Greek systems of thinking to conjecture about the fundamental nature of matter and its transformation into myriad things. We hear from Aristotle in his Metaphysics that Thales thought this primary substance, and most fundamental "stuff" which composes the Earth and all life is water. We hear about Thales' thesis secondhand because none of Thales' writings exist today. Thus, the only knowledge we have of what Thales actually thought comes from ideas attributed to him by other thinkers. Based on these sources it is evident that Thales was a pioneer both in astronomy and geometry in addition to philosophy for which he is primarily recognized.

From Aristotle we hear that Thales supposed the Earth to be a disc that floats in a sea of water. Based on this supposition, Thales supposed the cause of earthquakes to be the sea tossing the Earth. This belief is attributed to Thales by Antius, who also named Democritus as an advocate of this explanation.

From Aristotle we also hear another idea often associated with Thales, that "all things are full of the gods." Aristotle's De Anima reads: "Some think that the soul pervades the whole universe, whence perhaps came Thales's view that everything is full of gods." (411 a7-8). It is speculated that Aristotle was given this idea by Plato. The pantheist idea that "all things are full of the gods" does seem suspect considering Thales' apparent materialism, for Thales had named water as the primary source, and not a divine being.

Another feat attributed to Thales is the foretelling of a solar eclipse which occurred on May 28th, 585 BCE. We hear about this from Herodotus, in his recount of a battle between the Medes and the Lydians. Thales is also said to have brought geometry to Greece from Egypt.

Thales' younger associate Anaximander of Miletus (c.611-c.547 BCE) is known to have rejected his teacher's idea of water as the primary substance and origin of all things. Anaximander instead said that from which all things are born and eventually return is infinite and boundless.

(person) by SciPhi (2.6 mon) (print) ? (I like it!) 1 C! Thu Aug 11 2005 at 7:59:12

Thales is the earliest known¹ Hellenic Philosopher, grouped along with Anaximander and Anaximenes as the earliest of the pre-socratics², referred to as the Milesians. This is an altogether fitting name for the three, as they lived in the ancient Hellenic³ city of Miletus. They used to hang out a lot and figure out how the Universe worked, inventing things like reason and logic along the way⁴. We credit Thales with being the first "natural philosopher" because Aristotle⁵ does, and who are you to question it, mister?

ABOUT THE WATER THING:

Yeah, sure, Aristotle says that Thales described the origin of all things as water. Do me the brief favor of looking at the area settled by the ancient Ionian⁶ Greeks. You will notice that Miletus is actually a city in Turkey, and that everywhere is water! From a certain perspective, the "we all came from the water" perspective of Thales is actually a fairly simple and relatively common creation myth -- most primitive peoples have similar quasi-metaphorical tales that actually impart a great deal of knowledge about their origins.

But this would be an incorrect reading of Thales, because the Greeks already have a creation myth. It is very long, fairly complex, and prominently features castration. Thales's creation theory (for it is presented as a philosophical theory, instead of mythological fact) attempts to create a materialistic account of the origin of earth, devoid of the ancient gods. It is unclear (well, even more unclear) whether or not Thales is describing life, earth, or the universe in this origin account; but it makes sense given other Milesian theories (in particular, the distinction between things which operate according to scientific laws, and the things which create and sustain them) that water here is used as a metaphor for creation. Remember, if you're creating philosophy from scratch you don't have neat words like ontology or epistemology, you have to invent them.

This understanding of Thales is bolstered by another Aristotle⁷ quote "all things are full of gods" which sounds really stupid if taken literally. It also sounds stupid if understood in light of some sort of modern pantheism. But it makes perfect sense if read backwards. Saying that all things are equally full of gods means that all things are also empty of gods. Again, read with what we know of the two guys he hung out with all the time, it appears that Thales is very close to being the first Atheist, in addition to being the first Philosopher.

BUT SERIOUSLY:

We have no idea who Thales was, if he even existed. The only direct evidence of his mere existence comes from a few footnotes in Aristotle, who admitted that his knowledge was not firsthand, and a couple of random references in antiquity. We can't even prove that Thales existed beyond a reasonable doubt, much less have any idea what he wrote, and even less of an idea what he meant by it.

But there may be a chance, dear reader, that you will find yourself in a college classroom with a professor enamored of the pre-socratics. And this professor may insist upon making factual statements about things that no one knows a damn bit about. I encourage you to throw your own feces at him/her.

Hey, it's better than what the Spartans would've done.

FOOTNOTES:

1. Perhaps it would be better to say "discussed" rather than known. How can we really claim to know anything about Thales or even this so-called "time" by placing him earliest. It is more precise to merely describe our actions in discussing his supposed existence.

2. If you buy into the whole "time" concept, we discuss them as PRE-Socratics because they came before Socrates, a thoroughly annoying (and ugly) Athenian Proto-Fascist elevated to fame by the lies of his disciple Plato.

3. This is how you say "Greek" when you wish to sound like a pretentious snob.

4. We seriously know nothing about the dude firsthand. Most of our ideas about what he thought come from the two Anas, because they both wrote stuff down. About Thales in particular, we rely upon Aristotle's writings.

5. I should mention here that Aristotle's writings are actually just lecture notes of his that he used to teach classes. Ever looked at your professor's lecture notes? Think you could figure out not only what he's trying to say, but also everything that happened in his general geographic location for the previous three hundred years? So sure, Aristotle had some really good notes, but let's read critically, shall we?

6. This word means "Not Doric." It could also be used to mean the eastern tribe of seafaring Greeks who established colonies all over the eastern Mediterranean. Also, a type of column used in ancient architecture.

7. Reading Aristotle is almost as bad as reading Kant. And reading Kant is almost as bad as reading Heidegger. And reading Heidegger almost made me commit suicide.

Anything actually informative in this write-up comes from Edward Hussey's 1972 bore, "The Pre-Socratics" published in New York by Charles Scribner's Sons. Did you know they also published all of Hemingway's novels? True story.

(person) by undegaussable (1.6 y) (print) ? (I like it!) Fri Sep 09 2005 at 4:38:59

Thales is the hero of any modern-day philosophy student. These poor souls are constantly derided by their counterparts in the Engineering and Business departments, who are wont to inform aspiring philosophers that thinking about metaphysics and epistemology and other polysyllabics doesn't pay the bills.

Our man Thales was one of the first, if not the first, in Western culture to be so derided. Everyone in Miletus, especially the many money-minded merchants, loved to laugh at Thales, who was constantly carrying on about constellations, and the universe, and all sorts of other things that don't bring home the bacon. Or so everyone said.

According to Aristotle¹, Thales eventually got pretty sick of being a laughingstock. He had figured out something important about the positions of the stars and the olive crops, and after looking at the sky for a while he was pretty darn sure that there was going to be a bumper crop of olives that year. So he got it into his head that he'd corner the market on olive presses.

Sure enough, the olives that year were quite bountiful. And when those jokers came with their olives to use the presses, Thales jacked up the price. He made a killing! Who says philosophy doesn't pay?

Footnotes
1. Aristotle, Politics XI, 1259b

printable version
chaos

Presocratic Greek Philosophers	Anaximander	First date in history	Theorem of Thales
Greece, Miletus, and Thales: The Birth of the Boundary Breakers	Heraclitus	September 8, 2005	Sophist
Hot water freezes faster than cold water	Thucydides	Herodotus	Seven Sages
Martin Heidegger	Socrates	Noah's Ark	Aesop
Tentative: little Theory	Milesian school	Pluralist school	philosophers
Parmenides	Nietzsche on Truth as a Value	How science undergoes changes of theory	Leibniz's Fork

Y'know, if you log in, you can write something here, or contact authors directly on the site. Create a New User if you don't already have an account.

Login
Password

remember me
password reminder
register

Everything2 Help

Just another sprinkling of indeterminacy
Slide rule
OK, so I'm a fuckup, and it's Tuesday
Johannes Trithemius
SID
Impact of the Marshall Court
Special Alt key characters & accents
Civil Rights Act of 1964
Everything as a literary composition
Christians don't believe that "being good" gets anyone into Heaven
Footprints is a Gay Black Hippie Jew
The Hacker's Kitchen Guide
Allen Ginsberg
Yellow Mountain

Heitah
Anarchy is Order	(idea)
jessicaj
July 26, 2008	(dream)
Berek
ABBA	(person)
devolution
k-hole	(place)
Nadine_2
The Sound Of Madness	(review)
Twin Eclipse
Conversations with God: An Uncommon Dialogue	(idea)
SwimmingMonkey
Conversations with Fo Fo- the Loneliest dog in Purgatory	(fiction)
locke baron
lynx	(thing)
Simulacron3
Reality, Dimensions and the Natural Ontology	(essay)
SubSane
Making Love to a 9-Foot Woman	(person)
Ouzo
Thoughts	(idea)
antigravpussy
I fall silent, listening. The breadcrumbs are talking about us	(person)
calgon
Buffalo Bill by the pool	(poetry)
gate
Anarchy is Order	(idea)
ushdfgakjasgh
Scribeling	(thing)

E2 is a by-product of the existence of The Everything Development Company