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/10/For text of this aide-memoire, see Department of State Bulletin, August 7, 1961, pp. 231-233.
The group then moved to the dining room for lunch.
88. Memorandum of Conversation/1/
Vienna, June 4, 1961.
/1/Source: Kennedy Library, President's Office Files, USSR. Secret;
Eyes Only. Drafted by Akalovsky and approved by the White House on June
23. The meeting was held at the Soviet Embassy.
SUBJECT
Vienna Meeting Between The President and Chairman Khrushchev
PARTICIPANTS
Listed on Page 5
During lunch the following points of interest emerged:
1. Mr. Khrushchev said he had not had the good fortune of meeting Lenin.
2. Mr. Khrushchev referred to the obsolescence of naval surface ships such
as cruisers and carriers. He said that the Soviet Union had switched
to the production of submarines, particularly of submarines designed to
combat other vessels. On the other hand, US submarines are designed to
attack land masses. Of course, the USSR has such submarines too. Mr. Khrushchev
then expressed the view that missiles are the God of War today and said
that they had three types of missiles in production: short-range, medium-range,
and inter-continental.
3. Mr. Khrushchev said he had heard that pressure was being brought to bear
on the President to resume nuclear weapon tests. He said that he was under
a similar pressure; however, the USSR will wait for the US to resume testing
and if the US does resume the USSR will follow suit.
4. Mr. Khrushchev said he was placing certain restraints on projects for
a flight to the moon. Such an operation is very expensive and this may weaken
Soviet defenses. Of course, Soviet scientists want to go to the moon, but
the US should go first because it is rich and then the Soviet Union will
follow.
5. In response to the President's inquiry whether perhaps a cooperative effort
could be made in that direction, Mr. Khrushchev said that cooperation in outer
space would be impossible as long as there was no disarmament. The reason
for this is that rockets are used for both military and scientific purposes.
The President said that perhaps coordination in timing of such efforts could
be achieved in order to save money. This would not involve Soviet rockets.
Mr. Khrushchev replied that this might be possible but noted that so far there
had been few practical uses of outer space launchings. The race was costly
and was primarily for prestige purposes.
6. Mr. Khrushchev said that he had read the President's defense message/2/
and that in reading it he had thought that perhaps the USSR should also
increase its land forces and artillery The President observed that the
US was not planning to increase its armed forces except for 10,000 Marines
to bring three Marine Corps divisions up to full strength.
/2/For text of the President's special message to Congress on the defense
budget, March 28, see Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States:
John F. Kennedy, 1961, pp. 229-240.
7. During a brief discussion of the Laotian situation, Mr. Gromyko said
that the difference between the Secretary and himself was that Mr. Rusk wanted
the ICC to be free to go to any point in the country. On the other hand,
the Soviet view is that the purpose of the ICC is to verify the cease-fire
and that, therefore, the ICC should be allowed to go only to points along
the front line where clashes occur.
8. In his toast to the President, Mr. Khrushchev said that he was very
happy to meet the President and to be able to exchange views with him. He
said he preferred as much as possible to have personal contacts. This is always
better than to act through even the best possible Ambassadors. He quoted a
joke that natural love is better than love through interpreters. He said that
he always preferred contacts and did not like to evade crucial issues. If
leaders of states cannot resolve the most complex problems between themselves,
how can officials at a lower level accomplish that task. This is why he prefers
personal meetings, where he can listen to the position of the other side and
set forth his own. He said he had heard the President's position and had set
forth his own. At this time, apparently no understanding has been reached
between the two sides. However, if people could resolve all difficult questions
in their first meeting, no difficult questions would exist. Noting that he
was speaking on behalf of the Soviet Government and on behalf of the USSR's
friends in the Warsaw Pact who are interested in a peace treaty with Germany,
Mr. Khrushchev said that he wanted to stress that they are for peace. The
President might agree or disagree with this, but, Mr. Khrushchev said, he
wanted to assure the President that the USSR's motives are sincere. He wanted
the President to understand that when the USSR undertook this action, it would
not be directed against the US or its allies. The Soviet Union wants to remove
the roadblocks that stand in the way. This is a painful process and it is
similar to a surgical operation. However, the USSR wants to cross that bridge
and it will cross it. Evidently US-USSR relations will sustain great tensions
as a result of that but, Mr. Khrushchev said, he is sure that the clouds will
dissipate, the sun will come out again and will shine brightly. The US does
not want Berlin, neither does the Soviet Union. It is true that US prestige
is involved in this matter, but the only party really interested in Berlin
as such is Adenauer. He is an intelligent man but old. The Soviet Union cannot
agree to having the old and moribund hold back the young and vigorous. Strauss/3/
is the most aggressive-minded man in West Germany, but even a man like himself,
whose mind is in the eclipse, can apparently see the light. On one occasion
Strauss wisely admitted that he fully understood how greatly Germany would
suffer in a new war and how complete its destruction would be. This was a
very wise remark. So let us try to remove the seeds that engender conflicts.
Mr Khrushchev said that he understood the President's position was a difficult
one; his allies may raise the question of why the US should be speaking
on their behalf. However, the allies of the USSR feel the same and are jealous
about their rights. Mr. Khrushchev said that he was sure that if a US ally
like Luxembourg were to raise its voice, there would be no problem for the
President. He said he did not wish to name some of his own allies who, if
they were to raise a belligerent voice, would not frighten anyone. However,
the situation would be quite different if our two countries were to clash.
Mr. Khrushchev then raised his glass to the solution of those problems. The
President is a religious man and would say that God should help us in this
endeavor. For his part, Mr. Khrushchev said, he wanted common sense to help
us find solutions to our problems.
/3/Franz Joseph Strauss, West German Defense Minister.
9. In his reply, the President expressed his appreciation of this opportunity
to meet the Chairman and said that the reason why he had been anxious to meet
with him was that he felt that our two countries were strong and that our
peoples wanted peace and continued progress toward a better life. He also
felt that a meeting between the Chairman and himself would be in the interest
of world relations generally. The President then said that while the talks
had been wide-ranging, he appreciated the atmosphere in which they had taken
place. As he had told Mr. Gromyko, his ambition was to prevent a direct confrontation
between the US and the USSR in this era of evolution, the outcome of which
we cannot foresee. Such a confrontation might endanger peace.
The President said he had never underestimated the power of the USSR and
he knew Mr. Khrushchev also realized that the US was a strong country. Both
have vast supplies of destructive weapons. In the past, it was possible
to fight wars without necessarily causing a lasting effect, but the effects
of a modern war would go from generation to generation. Therefore, the President
continued, both he and the Chairman have the special obligation of carrying
out their responsibilities toward their peoples and their national interests
in a way not endangering all. In other words, there should be a basic understanding
of basic and secondary questions. For instance, Germany and its future is
extremely important because of its geographic location. Each side should recognize
the interests and responsibilities of the other side.
The President expressed the hope that he would not leave this meeting in
Vienna, a city that is symbolic of the possibility of finding equitable
solutions, with a problem involving national security and reputation. Although
in other days people with similar responsibilities failed, the President said,
he hoped that he and the Chairman would be able to succeed. This goal can
be achieved only if each is wise and stays in his own area. The President
concluded by recalling that last night he had asked Mr. Khrushchev what position
he had occupied at the age of 44. The Chairman had replied that he was head
of the Moscow Planning Commission and was looking forward to becoming Chairman.
As far as he was concerned, the President said, he hoped to become at the
age of 67 head of the Boston Planning Commission and perhaps National Chairman
of the Democratic Party. Mr. Khrushchev interjected that perhaps the President
would like to become head of the Planning Commission of the whole world. The
President said no, only of the city of Boston.
{Here follows the same list of participants as printed at the end of Document 84.}
FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES - 1961-1963 - Volume V - Soviet Union P51