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Question about infinite monkeys, copyright, and patents

created by Saige

(idea) by ApoxyButt (9 mon) (print)   ?   (I like it!) 1 C! Tue Jun 27 2000 at 18:44:25

This wouldn't really work for you, Saige. Sure, you'd have the complete collection of every document ever conceivable, but you'd have so much useless crap that you'd spend eons searching for something meaningful. Sure, you'd have in there somewhere the secret to eternal life, the program code which precisely models human intelligence, and the script for the next Friends episode, but you'd have to find them among an infinite volume of wonderful prose such as:
aosidfjapfbihqaenfovoanjhvoaidjflkcvnoifjalskfj!$%0uoaj if0waru2u5
or, my favorite:
089utnoi igeofr8tug jg9eu0g34u t9ug0ujin2jrp4-oy3\tw98h1i684/-2846-fjkb,.zignosdf16d ihow
Unfortunately, to do this search, you'd have to run an infinte number of search engines for an infininte amount of time. Or, one infinitely fast search engine for an infinitely small amount of time. You might as well just walk into the patent office and tell them "I'd like to patent every single thing imaginable that hasn't already been patented!" And then hit yourself in the face with a trout. That'll show 'em!

(idea) by yitz (2.9 mon) (print)   ?   (I like it!) Wed Jan 01 2003 at 18:28:59

In addition, I would take issue with the "latest metallica song in MP3." MP3s, like almost all digital files, are not composed of the characters/bytes solely depicted on the QWERTY keyboard or any other (keyboard) for that matter. You'd either need your monkeys to have 256-key keyboards (Each key corresponding to one of the values of a byte), or, instead, you could simply give each of your monkeys a 2-key keyboard and they could input everything in binary directly. With either of these two keyboards they might actually be able to generate the afore-mentioned MP3. Inputing in binary would also slow down the rate of your monkey's input, but since you are dealing with infinite time this factor is hardly relevant.

And of course, ApoxyButt's problem of Signal to Noise still exists and makes such an experiment meaningless. Unless, you consider that every ugly string like that might be a file that is mime-encoded or suffering from some other more obscure form of encoding, and so every single part of the string could have meaning. Is there noise?

More to the point though, you would suffer from many counter-suits, for you would also be in posession of unencrypted versions of everything that was ever encrypted for which you would be liable under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act(DMCA).


(idea) by pythagorous (7.9 mon) (print)   ?   (I like it!) Mon Mar 10 2003 at 6:33:44

No one answered the original question posed, so allow me to do it here quite quickly. If an infinite number of monkeys create an infinite amount of work, and some of that work just happens to be an MP3 of Metallica's latest hit, the work is free from American copyright restictions. This falls under one of the four main "limitations" of copyright:

Idea
Ideas expreesed by creative works are not themselves protected. Copyright covers the work, the expression of ideas, but not the ideas themselves. That is what patents are for.

Facts
Plain facts, like, say, a phone book, are not protected. However, cataloguing or organizing facts in a certain way can sometimes result in the database or collection of facts being copyrighted.

Independent Creation
If an exact duplicate of a work is created independently and with no knowledge of the original, it is not a copyright infringement. Providing you can prove it.

Fair Use
The one most well known. The Fair Use doctrine says that creative works can sometimes be used, in whole or in part, in specific circumstances, without violating copyright. Fair use is constantly being redefined.

As you can see, the third limitation is what makes this okay. Additionally, if the monkeys are in a nation that does not have an agreement with America, where Metallica received its copyright, then this statuatory analysis is not even required.


(idea) by Andrew Aguecheek (44.7 min) (print)   ?   (I like it!) Thu May 01 2003 at 12:20:32

Since the amount of time needed to search the documents until you found a comprehensible work, (As opposed to, "alas poor Yorik, I knew hiondsfnosdinmfwap"), would be huge if not infinite, there would be plenty of time for the above restrictions to be changed. In fact an entire new race could evolve where everything is communally owned, or where all unoriginal duplicates are illegal. This latter example would get you into serious trouble with the local government.

However your team of monkeys would also provide a way out. Since the monkeys would provide ever work conceivable, they would be the ideal lawyers. Somewhere there would be the perfect legal case to not only get you off Scot free, it would get you proclaimed King and Overlord of the Universe instantly.

If lawyers have been abolished. (I don't know how, presumably they could prove it was illegal to ban them, but given an infinite amount of time, it could happen). Then it will provide you simply with something to say that will instantly bring everyone in existence onto your side leaving no one to punish you.

You must be careful, however, that you do not only search in your native language, but also every language in existence. Thetranslations will be there, but you will have to check them for accuracy. (Don't worry, the script for a program that will do it for you is going to be in there too.) Make sure that pronunciation is correct, so find a document with phonetic spelling.

The final documents to locate are the ones that prove you completely wrong. You must destroy these, don't bother finding the documents that prove them wrong or you will end up wit infinite sheets of paper, which could be time consuming to read.

If for some reason you make a mistake and none of the above works remember that money talks. Find the code for the perfect OS and sell it to the highest bidder. Distribute the money to everyone causing a fuss and relax with a good book. (Try not to read Monkey Produced whodunits. They tend to be very, very, complicated and end with "the murderer is klsjoigfrnsdofnapgf...")

*

For those who do not have enough time to precure infinite monkeys may I suggest calculating the ratio of the diameter of a circle to it's circumference (pi). You will probably find a string of numbers containing every possible combination of digits. Assign letters or words to digit combinations and begin reading.


(idea) by lj (6.5 mon) (print)   ?   (I like it!) Thu May 01 2003 at 13:50:03

The biggest problem you'd have with this project is keeping your monkeys fed.

We can safely ignore the efficiency of an actual monkey versus a computer simulation of one, as this is simply a constant factor (The ratio of energy used between computer monkeys and real monkeys is not affected by the number of monkeys).

What we need to worry about are these three facts:
  • It takes energy1 to perform computation (The monkeys have to press keys)
  • The energy supply is limited (There is only so much mass to destroy in the solar system)
  • Each extra bit we're going to monkey doubles the work load. (Even if we copy our old results, and put a 1 on the end of one, and a 0 on the end of the other, the energy needed to copy them doubles each time. And so does the energy spent looking at the results to see if we've got anything useful)

What this means for us, is that given all the available energy in the solar system, there is a limit to the length of string we can monkey. And it turns out it's quite short. Somewhere around 192 bits, in fact2. There are many ways to represent english text as a binary number. The naïve way is to simply map the 26 possible characters to a sequence of bits. This takes 5-6 bits per character. Better ways include using a huffman tree of the character distributions in english, using a huffman tree for each preceding character, etc. etc. It is an open (and possibly as hard as the infinite monkeys problem) question whether there is a lower bound for this number.3

Giving the benefit of the doubt, we'll assume it takes only 1 bit to represent a character. So (assuming you are generating english more intelligently than picking characters at random, which would give you about 40 characters) you're getting something in the region of 192 characters. There aren't a lot of things that fit in 192 characters:

Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio:
a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy: he hath borne me on his back a thousand times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is! my gorge rims at it. Here hung those lips that I have

You'd better hope that one of these things is an incredibly consise guide to building a computer (in the words of Bruce Schneier) from something other than matter and occupy[ing] something other than space.


1 - technically, we're talking about entropy - the amount of energy left that can be leveraged to do something useful. But entropy is also an information theory term, and using entropy to mean both in the same node is just confusing.
2 - APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY, 2nd edition (John Wiley & Sons, 1996) goes into more detail on the subject. It suggests that you could get all the way to 219 bits by building a dyson sphere around a supernova. (222 if you could find a way to catch all the neutrinos)
3 - These don't give us work for free, though. While they give english-like text a shorter representation, they make representations of non-english text much longer.

printable version
chaos

finite monkeys theorem why the Napster issue is about a lot more than just music critical simian mass April Fools' RFCs
Is there Noise? Anal Cunt The phrase 'God is mathematics' is hidden in the digits of pi Intellectual property is theft
Dyson Sphere Infinite monkeys theorem Filling an infinite urn with balls intellectual property
is pi normal? The Library of Babel molecular assembler Why the sun shines more brightly than the moon
Signal to Noise government-granted monopoly DMCA Grendel
Napster patent Copyrighting a number Informal Britnoders Soirée
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